Working on the site's Plan of Salvation

We are working on both a Statement of Faith for the site and a Plan of Salvation. Come on in and gives us your input.

Postby camper on Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:19 am

No, it's not a church and I definitely agree that things would/should be handled differently here because it is a forum for discussion on topics that many churches (regardless of denomination) generally don't leave open to discussion.

However, when defining a plan of salvation, you have to be clear. Leaving 'wiggle room' will create division, confusion, and more questions than answers.

If I knew nothing about the Bible, was seriuosly considering Christianity and asked the simple question: "Is baptism a true requirement for salvation?" and got as a response:

"Yes"
"No"
"I don't know"
"Not really, but there's no reason why you shouldn't get baptised"
"Its an outward sign of salvation, kind of like pledging an oath"
"Some denominations believe so, others don't"
"Yes, as is A + B + C + D + E and always doing F"

How do you think that would make me feel? Being a 'new' or 'baby' Christian, I'd want to play it safe and get baptised. Now, that might not seem like a big deal, but what are the implications?

"I want to play it safe because I'm not sure that the sacrifice of Christ was enough."
"I must have to do something, because as someone else on the site said salvation must really only come 'after all you can do'."
"If I have to get baptised and do all those other things then what debt did Jesus really pay?"
"Sheesh, I better find the denomination with the strictest rules so I don't miss anything."
"If they're not sure of why they're believing what they believe, or can't get it right why should I believe anything they say? They could be wrong, and then I'm screwed!"

Here's the other thing that kind of bothers me. If you (not pointing fingers, using 'you' in the prototypically referential sense of the word) don't believe that baptism (or anything else) is a requirement for salvation, why in the world would you support a plan of salvation that does? I sure wouldn't, any more than I would refer someone to the 7th day Adventist or Mormon, or Christian Scientist plan of salvation. Why? Because if I don't believe it's true, I won't refer someone else to it either.

If someone were to ask me directly, of course I would explain it and talk about it.

Part of the problem (in my mind) is that many Christians consider it a non-issue because most Christians are baptised pretty early on and don't really care if it's required or not, because if it is then they've checked the box and are good to go. But like most issues of doctrine and theology, it's MUCH deeper than that and is also why getting to the root of the issue (what is required for salvation) is so important.

See, I was raised a Christian my whole life and became a Christian at a pretty young age. Went through my rebellion, got back in the walk, fell back out again, and then got back in again. I wasn't baptised until about 2 years ago, and that was when we had my son baptised (as a sign of how WE are going to raise him, not because we're buying him 'insurance').

So here's the operative question, when did I get saved? Keep in mind, even when I was backslidden I *knew* I was backslidden, and still continued in fellowship. I even felt the pull of the spirit when I was sinning, just as much as I do now when I start falling into sin. The difference now, is I'm more cognizant about trying to please God instead of myself, and working harder to do so.

I'm not bringin up myself to feel justified in some way, but just as a real-world example. But the way you answer my previous question above on when I was saved, depends GREATLY on how you answer the question as to what the requirements for salvation are.

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Postby ColtsFan76 on Tue Nov 21, 2006 9:27 pm

camper wrote:If I knew nothing about the Bible, was seriuosly considering Christianity and asked the simple question: "Is baptism a true requirement for salvation?" and got as a response:

"Yes"
"No"
"I don't know"
"Not really, but there's no reason why you shouldn't get baptised"
"Its an outward sign of salvation, kind of like pledging an oath"
"Some denominations believe so, others don't"
"Yes, as is A + B + C + D + E and always doing F"

How do you think that would make me feel? Being a 'new' or 'baby' Christian, I'd want to play it safe and get baptised. Now, that might not seem like a big deal, but what are the implications?

Fair point, But this is a discussion board and if you posed that question to the board, then you are going to get all of these answers anyway. If someone flat out contradicts what we are about - such as a Mormon - then we ask them to leave. No problem. This isn't a 7th day adventists doctrine we are examining here. This is something that CHRISTIANS believe. Let's stop with the hypotheticals and deal with the real issue that we are facing here.

OR- let's draw a line in the sand. Everyone who thinks baptism is required, please leave the site now. Anyone who thinks works are required, follow them out the door. You think you can loose you salvation? Get lost then. I know that sounds harsh - but why have anyone here who believes any of these thing if we are going to eliminate those thoughts right off the bat? Let's just make it a clean break now and get rid of those who don't agree.

OR - we can say, the gist of what they beleive is mostly in line with us. We say grace is sufficient and baptism isn't required. But getting baptised isn't bad. Jesus did and most of us feels it falls under the "public confession" aspect anyway. What they are proposing here is that someone do something above and not contradictory to anything Chritian here. No one is saying that Baptism is sufficient all alone. No one is saying we must remove Christ from the outline. If someone feels they must get baptised in addiiton to accepting Jesus into their heart - so be it - it really isn't causing much harm because they did the important thing - they got saved.

This is probably not something that Dan will relate to but I will throw out a week analogy for Paul. It's like in Memoir 44. It's the end of the game and you have to get 6 medals to win and you currently have 5. You have the cards to order multiple units but your first unti clinches the vicotry for you by capturing the medal. You have won the game. No matter what else you do, you still won the game. But sometimes, you just want to play the card out and order the rest of your units. Maybe you get 7 medals, maybe 8. It doesn't change the outcome. You didn't win any more, the extra medals don't count. But, you still won regardless of the extra stuff you did at the end.

That's how I feel about this. Getting saved is getting saved. You don't get any more saved by being baptised. If someone really really thinks you need to be baptised, go ahead, it's not going to hurt anything. God will tell you that when you get to heaven: "All you had to do was believe and that is what save you. Baptism just got you all wet."

But i guess we just have to agree to disagree. My vote is the footnote stays to encourage other Christian brothers to remain/return. If that fails, then I vote we eliminate the whols plan of salvation on this site. And that's about all I have left to say on this subject.
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My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.

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Postby camper on Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:48 am

If someone really really thinks you need to be baptised, go ahead, it's not going to hurt anything.


I understand what you're saying, believe me I do.

And so you don't think I was pulling hypotheticals out just for the sake of pulling them out, the point I was trying to make (and made poorly) is that 7th Day Adventists and Mormons both require baptism or else a person is not saved, and the theology of both is that the sacrifice of Christ simply is not alone sufficient for Salvation.

But the comment that you made about it not hurting anything - I'm still going to have to disagree. The difference is whether the sacrifice of Christ is completed or not, and who is it that completes it. If you're saying baptism is required for salvation, then you're saying that you (or the person performing the baptism) has to perform an act in order to become saved and Christ is only part of the way.

The thief on the cross is the prime example of what is required for salvation. He believed in Christ and repented, and was never baptised. This was brought up earlier in the thread.

I would almost contend that placing faith in anything other than in what Christ has done for us rather than what we have to do, would be cause to sersiously question whether a person is saved to begin with. "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves." Eph 2:8. If a person insists that they have to be baptised in order to be saved, they are insisting that it is not by grace but by works.

I'm not suggesting or implying that anyone leave or be asked to leave if they disagree with a point or statement, unless they're being completely disruptive. I'm also not suggesting that we can't debate on this issue (or any other issue) as the more a person learns the more they realize there is much more to learn. And I'm most defintiely not suggesting that a person shouldn't being baptised. I'm saying that if they are, it's to do it for the right reason - show that you've committed your life to Christ, not performing an act on the way to getting saved.

However, I will say that I personally feel that if we offer a plan of salvation (what a person has to do to be saved) then we make it as correct as possible according to scripture, and not highlight something that other groups believe in especially if it contradicts what we know (or believe) to be true just to make it more acceptable to the masses. Like I've said before, I find accomodation with regard to critical issues to be a very dangerous slope to stand at the edge of. Look at where we are with society, we've made so many accomodations to secular and humanistic thought that we've forgotten that this country was founded on Judeo-Christian values. Now, those who hold the views we once made accomodations for are working to have our Judeo-Christian values removed from society and deemed invalid or antiquated.

I will also say, that if anyone has left this site or chosen not to return I find it hard to believe that it was because of this particular thread discussing a plan of salvation, but more because they've committed themselves to a particular doctrine and are unwilling to discuss the matter further.

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Postby ColtsFan76 on Fri Nov 24, 2006 2:29 pm

camper wrote:
If someone really really thinks you need to be baptised, go ahead, it's not going to hurt anything.


I understand what you're saying, believe me I do.

And so you don't think I was pulling hypotheticals out just for the sake of pulling them out, the point I was trying to make (and made poorly) is that 7th Day Adventists and Mormons both require baptism or else a person is not saved, and the theology of both is that the sacrifice of Christ simply is not alone sufficient for Salvation.

Though I am loathe to continue this conversation, I'll bite again. The drastic difference is that the Christians who proclaim baptism is a requirement of slavation are not replacing the work Christ did on the cross. From what we learned of Skyfire, Jesus really isn't even needed in the Mormon religion. In fact, I would venture to say that in their belief, baptism is the overriding act in one's salvation. They go so far as vicariously baptizing the dead so as to save them. That is something completely different than what we are talking about here.

I am going to make a bold statemnt here so hear me out. Christ's death on the corss is NOT sufficient for salvation on its own. What He did most certainly paid our sins and is the only way to heaven. However, in order to receive that free gift, we must ask for it. So we must do something to get it. We are most definitely involved in our salvation. It is not our act that saves us; but it is our act that enables us to allow salvation to work for us.

If we did not hav eto have a par tin it, then everyone is automatically saved, whether they want to be or not. But instead, the Bible tells us we must do something - we must ask for it and we must believe. Specifically, the Bible says we must believe in our heart and confess with our mouth. And so even after believing, we must do something for it.

And there is the difference in what seperates the denominations though we are all Christian. We disagree on that public confession portion. I understand the public confession to be a mere utterance stating "I believe." The others that argued on this thread belive it must be baptism and baptism only. For others, maybe they believe it is the ongoing sancitification of a believer and his ability to lead a "Christian life." But in all cases, the important thing is that we all agree that Slavation only comes through Jesus, but accepting that salvation is not entirely agreed upon by all Christians. And by Christian, I do not mean 7th Day Adventists, Mormons, JW's etc.

Salvation is not something you stumble upon. And so if a person sincerely comes to Christ and accepts Him into his heart, it really doesn't matter what he does after that. If they think Baptism is the "public confession" that seals the deal, so be it. it is not the act of baptism that saves, but it is what confirms that one has accepted Christ in their line of thinking.

So we are not promoting other concepts of Salvation. We are presenting the plan of salvation. But when we get to the public confession part (and I am pretty sure all of us follow scripture and feel there is a public confession part), that is where we differ. So we say there is a public confession then we footnote that part. The majority believes it is just straight up public statment. But we have an asterisk that says some feel they have to be baptised to fulfill that part of scripture. I really don't understand th eproblem with that.
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My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.

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Postby pl_walker on Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:32 am

At the risk of taking a few more whacks at the bloody mass of horseflesh that is left over from this discussion, I'll try to add a few clarifying remarks. :)

I think there are two issues going on here. Well, aside from the issue of what should go on the site's plan of salvation.

1. What does it take to be saved.
2. Doctrine vs Practical.

On the first issue, I think the key is where the trust is. Can you believe that you must be Baptised and still be saved? If you place your trust in that Baptism, no, I don't believe you can. If, however, you believe that Baptism is simply the "work" that accompanies the "faith" of Salvation, I think you surely can be saved. I have a good friend that believes that, but I don't doubt his salvation.

The second issue is a VERY old one. How far does Doctrine strecth into the practical side of life. Sure in a perfect world, we can perfectly mesh Doctrine and practical issues of life. The problem is that issues just like this come up. Doctrinally, many of us believe that Baptism is not required for Salvation. Practically speaking, if your faith is in the finished work of Christ, most of us would say it doesn't matter whether you believe Baptism is required to "prove" your faith or not. The issue of the "deathbed" salvation is where the rubber meets the road, so to speak. For the most part, those who believe that Baptism is necessary for Salvation waver somewhat here. Most often, they hedge on that point and say something about God knowing our heart.

Now, to bring this down to our discussion. As I said before, I'm not looking to limit access to this site from anyone, nor am I trying to kick anyone off the site. Here is where I think the problem lies. If we allow a footnote that some people believe that Baptism is necessary, then we open the door for others footnotes. Now, we've been focusing on whether this opens the door for the extremists: Mormon footnotes or Seventh Day footnotes and the like. But what about Calvinist footnotes. Do we add a note that says some people object to the fact that you have to "accept" salvation? What about those who believe you can loose your salvation? Do we add another note that says some people don't believe that if you don't keep up the good works, all the accepting and baptism aren't enough? I agree that the examples of Mormonism, Seventh Day and other major variations are a bit far fetched, and wouldn't expect that we would include footnote's for them. But what about the other different beliefs? Do we put a footnote up for Calvinists, Baptismal Regenerationalists, those who believe you can lose your salvation, and any other minor variant that someone believes? I'd prefer that we didn't.

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Postby ColtsFan76 on Sat Nov 25, 2006 11:33 am

pl_walker wrote: But what about the other different beliefs? Do we put a footnote up for Calvinists, Baptismal Regenerationalists, those who believe you can lose your salvation, and any other minor variant that someone believes? I'd prefer that we didn't.

Paul

In which case, I think our experiment has failed. If we feel we cannot succinctly establish a unifying message on this, then I advocate dropping the whole issue. We should remain a fellowship and if someone is looking for a plan of salvation, we can direct them elsewhere and ask them to return here with their questions.
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My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.

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Postby pl_walker on Sat Nov 25, 2006 8:39 pm

ColtsFan76 wrote:In which case, I think our experiment has failed. If we feel we cannot succinctly establish a unifying message on this, then I advocate dropping the whole issue.


That's a little extreme, isn't it? I mean, I didn't realize the purpose of this site was an experiment in unity. Unity on doctrine isn't possible unless someone changes their beliefs. I don't think anyone is advocating that. Rather, I'm just advocating that any doctrine statements reflect the board's leadership and not a smorgasbord of options.
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Postby camper on Mon Nov 27, 2006 11:41 am

However, in order to receive that free gift, we must ask for it. So we must do something to get it.


True, we do have to play a small part and that's the acceptance of the gift.

It's kind of like being out to dinner with friends getting separate checks at the end of the meal, and someone saying "Hey...it's my treat, who here want's their check added to my bill?" You either raise your hand in front of the rest of the table, and ask him to pay it (but first you have to believe he's not kidding), or you don't. You have no cash at all to pay your share, and everyone else is in the same boat as you. You can't work off your meal so you either ask the guy to pay for you, or you face whatver consequences the owner sees fit, because he will demand payment for what you ate.

Now to the footnote, Paul pretty much summed up why I'm against it. If you footnote that some require baptism and some don't, then you would open the door to the issue of unconditional election, and those who subscribe to that would find baptism or even acceptance of Christ a moot point.

And what about those who are Catholic, wouldn't we need to footnote many of their beliefs as well? Especially if we're listing one of the sacrements (baptism) why wouldn't we footnote the others such as Eucharist or confession?

And if we're footnoting authority (which we would have to in any plan of salvation, as that is where the plan comes from) then wouldn't we need to footnote tradition as well, as Catholicism places an emphasis on that?

Then if we only decide to footnote strictly baptism, should we add a footnote to the baptism portion, and say that there are some who believe that baptism doesn't refer to the act of being baptised by water but by the Holy Spirit?

That's why it's such a slippery slope. There could be a footnote for each and every part of the plan. And if you're going to refer a person outside the site for more information, where are you going to refer them? They could get 4 different referrals to 4 different places that teach 4 different requirements.

The main issue still is whether or not baptism or anything else is required for salvation. To say on one hand that baptism is not required, and then to footnote that some denominations believe that it is creates confusion and can cause a person to place their trust outside what Christ has done versus what they have to personally do.

Yes a person has to believe, and before they can believe they have to hear and that belief requires an act on our part. But that is very different then saying that part of believing is to be baptised. Like Paul pointed out, if baptism is required then a deathbed confession is meaningless and does not result in salvation, but instead results in a person meeting the same fate as one who intentionally turned their back on Christ. If a person can be saved on thier deathbed without being baptised, then baptism is not required for salvation.

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Postby Matthew on Mon Nov 27, 2006 12:47 pm

ColtsFan76 wrote:In which case, I think our experiment has failed. If we feel we cannot succinctly establish a unifying message on this, then I advocate dropping the whole issue.


i some what agree. The thing we must also realize is that we have several different denominations represented here. Baptist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, Non-Denominational Protestant, Methodists, non-denominational, Charismatic, Roman Catholic, Independant Fundamental Baptist, Apostolic Pentecostal

We aren't going to agree, that's why we are all different denominations. I do think paul's idea to have a statement from the site admin could be good.

To me, roman's road is pretty straight forward, to me that is :D
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Postby ColtsFan76 on Mon Nov 27, 2006 5:02 pm

Matthew wrote:
ColtsFan76 wrote:In which case, I think our experiment has failed. If we feel we cannot succinctly establish a unifying message on this, then I advocate dropping the whole issue.


i some what agree. The thing we must also realize is that we have several different denominations represented here. Baptist, Church of Christ, Pentecostal, Non-Denominational Protestant, Methodists, non-denominational, Charismatic, Roman Catholic, Independant Fundamental Baptist, Apostolic Pentecostal

We aren't going to agree, that's why we are all different denominations. I do think paul's idea to have a statement from the site admin could be good.

To me, roman's road is pretty straight forward, to me that is :D

And that is what I am trying to say here. One man's footnote, is another man's faith. And while I initially thought we could weave together something that would clearly state the plan of salvation, I see that we can't. Because in reality, our concept of not needing Baptism to be saved is a footnote to other Chistians. And if we have to footnote for every denomination here, then I agree it becomes pretty silly. Why have a one paragraph statment of faith and 20 paragraphs footnoting it? It would look like some legal document instead of a simple plan for eternity.

But since we can't agree, then I think a statement as Matt and Chad see it would be sufficient. If others don't like it, then I guess they can leave.
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Postby the pyromaniac on Mon Nov 27, 2006 8:42 pm

Here's what I would do...

Jesus Christ = Son of God, the Messiah, Died on the cross as payment for the sins of mankind and is the only path to God. On the third day, He was resurrected and ascended into Heaven. To be saved, a person must believe this, confess with his mouth that Jesus is Lord, and repent of his sinful nature.

Pyro's opinion = Baptism is a public profession of faith and is an occasion that God will use (in the words of my wife) to do business with you. It's an act of submission to His will, and the Bible is clear that God desires that His people be baptised. That being said, I'm not convinced baptism is necessary for salvation, but it is necessary if you're seeking the deepest relationship with God.
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Postby ColtsFan76 on Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:10 pm

ColtsFan76 wrote:But since we can't agree, then I think a statement as Matt and Chad see it would be sufficient. If others don't like it, then I guess they can leave.

I was at work when I wrote this earlier and was distracted from my thoughts. I don't mean to imply that those who disagree should leave. I mean I am fine with the site owners stating their belief on salvation. And those who do not like it have the option of not joining the site if they feel it is too drastic from their own belief system.
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Postby hardroc on Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:44 pm

This is from the "Seven Steps of Salvation" by Simeon Young


We are saved by the following:

1 Grace
2 Faith
3 Confession
4 Repentance
5 Baptisim
6 Holy Ghost
7 Endurance


The means of Grace
Suppose a man who cannot swim falls overboard. Suppose someone in the boat throws him a lifeline and pulls him to safety.

Who or what saved the drowning man? His friend? The lifeline? The life preserver? The boat? Or did the man save himself? The answer, of course, is that his friend saved him, the lifeline, and the life preserver, and the boat saved him. And he also saved himself.

This simple parable helps us understand that it is foolish to say that are saved by grace alone, as it would be for the drowning man to claim that any one of the above means saved him without other intervention.

The bible certainly does teach that we are saved by grace. But it also teaches that God uses means. These means are called by theologians, the "means of grace".

This short study lists several of God's chosen "means of grace" and it is intended to be a quick reference and teaching tool. On these pages we have compiled pertinent portions of the pure Word of God to show how God saves us by His grace.

When the truth of salvation by grace is better understood, the doctrine of easy believism loses its siren appeal.



The Significance of Seven

The number of seven was sacred for the ancient Jews, and played a prominent role in their religious life. (Read Numbers 23:29, I Chronicles 15:26.)

The children of Israel obeyed God's command to march around the city of Jericho seven times (one time each for six days). At the sound of the trumpet, when they shouted a great shout, the city walls crumbled. (Joshua 6:4.)

Elisha sent his messenger/servant to Naaman the leper, captain of the Syrian army to tell him to wash seven times in the Jordan river and that he would be cleansed and healed of his leprosy. (II Kings 5:10.)

The Word of God declares, "And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made. And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it He had rested from all His work" (Genesis 2:2-3).

The number seven indicates perfection and symbolizes completeness or wholeness. In this Bible study we have shown the necessity of the seven progressive steps of salvation. Without each of the seven steps, there is no salvation.


The Seven Steps To Salvation - Step 1

Saved by Grace

Definition of Grace: 1. The unmerited love and favor of God; 2. A state of reconciliation with God.

Someone said that "grace" stands for Great Redemption At Christ's Expense. (G.R.A.C.E.).

Romans 3:23,24 - "For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God; being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus."

Titus 2:11 - "For the grace of God that bringeth salvation, hath appeared unto all me."

Ephesians 2:5 - "Even when we were dead in sins, hath [He] quickened us together with Christ; for by grace are ye saved."

We cannot be saved without the grace of God. The unmerited favor of God gives us the privilege of being saved, but we are not saved by grace alone and apart from God's chosen means.

Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."



The Seven Steps To Salvation - Step 2

Saved by Faith

Definition of Faith: 1. Confidence or trust; 2. Spiritual acceptance of truth; 3. Belief in God.

Definition of Believe: 1. To be fully persuaded; 2. To put all confidence in.

Ephesians 2:8 - "For by grace are ye saved through faith."

I Peter 1:9 - "Receiving the outcome of your faith, even the salvation of your souls."

To be saved we must have faith in God.

Hebrews 11:6 - "But without faith it is impossible to please God: for he that cometh to God must believe that He is: and that He is a rewarded of them that diligently seek Him."

Mark 16:16 - "He that believeth not shall be damned."

James 2:19-20 - "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

When someone says, "I believe," it doesn't necessarily mean that they are saved, because demons also believe. Devils are definitely not saved. There is more to salvation than saying, "I believe in God."

Romans 10:10 - For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth is confession is made unto salvation."

The Seven Steps To Salvation - Step 3

Definition of Confession: 1. To disclose sins or faults to God; 2. To unburden the conscience; 3. To acknowledge guilt, wrong-doing or sinfulness; 4. To admit to unbecoming deeds.

Remember Romans 10:10 - "... with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

Someone said that, "Confession is good for the soul."

Make a list of some things in your life that may displease God.

1. ____________________
2. ____________________
3. ____________________
4. ____________________

1 John 1:9 - "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

James 5:16 - "Confess your faults unto one another, and pray for one another, that ye may be healed."

Confession involves becoming transparent and honest. Confession will lead us to the salvation of our souls.

We should not only confess our sins...

Proverbs 28:13 - "He that covereth his sins shall not prosper; but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy."




The Seven Steps To Salvation - Step 4

Saved by Repentance

Definition of Repentance: 1. To change one's mind; 2. To turn around; 3. The forsaking of sins; 4. To make an about face.

Remember Romans 28:13 - "...Whoso confesseth and forsaketh his sins shall have mercy."

It is not enough merely to confess our sins. We must turn from sin to be saved.

II Corinthians 7:10 - "Godly sorrow worketh repentence unto salvation."

Luke 13:3 - "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

II Peter 3:9 - ...the Lord is not willing that any should perish, but that all come to repentence."

Repentence is more than being sorry for one's sins. Repentence involves a lifestyle / mindset / attitude adjustment.

It is more exciting to turn away from the old life of sin and condemnation!

We must not stop here.

Acts 2:38 - "Then Peter said unto them, repent and be baptized everyone of you..."






The Seven Steps To Salvation - Step 5

Saved by Baptism

Definition of Baptism: 1. To dip, plunge, or submerge. 2. A religious ceremony signifying spiritual purification by immersion in water.

I Peter 3:21 - "Whereunto even baptism doth also now save us."

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.

What is the scriptural formula for water baptism?

Acts 8:16 - "...they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus."

Acts 10:48 - Peter commanded that the Gentiles be baptized in the name of the Lord.

Acts 22:16 - "And now why terriest thou? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord."

Acts 10:43 - "Through His name we receive remissions of sins."

Luke 24:47 - "Remissions of sins should be preached in his name..."

Why is the name of Jesus so important in water baptism? (Read Acts 4:12 and Colossians 3:17.)

Acts 2:38 - Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost."





Saved by the Holy Ghost

John 3:3-5 - Jesus told Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews, "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto Him, how can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, an d be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, except a man be born of the water and of the spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God."

Without God's Holy Spirit, we cannot be saved (Read Romans 8:1-14.)

Notice verse 9 - "...Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of His."

Notice verse 14 - "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God."

How do I know if I have received the Spirit of God? What is the initial physical evidence?

Read about the new birth experience on the day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:1-4.)

Acts 10:44,46 - "While yet Peter spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on them which heard the Word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God..."

Acts 19:1-6 "1 And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples, 2 He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost. 3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism. 4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus. 5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."



The Seven Steps To Salvation - Step 7
Saved by Endurance

Definition of Endurance: 1. The act, quality, or power of withstanding hardship. 2. The state of fact of persevering. 3. Continuing existence; duration.

The writer of Hebrews referred to the Christian life as a race.

Hebrews 12:1 - Let us run with patience the life that is set before us..."

To finish the Christian race we must keep running and enduring. It is not enough to begin this race by having faith, confessing sins, forgiving sins, being baptized in Jesus' name and receiving the Holy Spirit. We must continue on with the Lord.

Matthew 10:22 - He that endureth to the end shall be saved."

Matthew 24:13 - "But he that shall endure to the end, the same shall be saved."

II Timothy 2:3 - "Endure the hardness as a good soldier of Jesus Christ."

Hebrews 12:7 - "If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as sons.

James 1:12 - "Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love Him."



Closing

Hebrews 2:1-4
1 Therefore we ought to give the more earnest heed to the things which we have heard, lest at any time we should let them slip. F4 2 For if the word spoken by angels was stedfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just recompence of reward; 3 How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; 4 God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts F5 of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will?

The end.


My personal thoughts.


Either the Bible counterdicts itself with how to be saved, or the Bible really is Gods infalible word and each verse reconciles itself to the other.


1 Corenthians 14:26 "How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying. "


1 Timothy 4:16 "Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee. "

2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: "


Acts 10:42 "And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. "

1 Corinthians 4:5 "Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. "

Hebrews 10:30 "For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. "


I believe that God will be a just and merciful God when the time comes. The Bible says we are to throw the seed, God gives the increase.


Lastly,

If all you have to do is "belive" then cool, we should all make it to heaven since we all have a "mustard seed of faith."

However if God really did mean to be baptised, the one who belives and is not....

I pray to God all it took to make Heaven my home is to believe.
Yours in Christ

Brother Rocky
Hardroc
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "
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Postby Matthew on Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:27 am

Lastly,

If all you have to do is "belive" then cool, we should all make it to heaven since we all have a "mustard seed of faith."

If all we have to do is believe? you wrote this above as well:
    James 2:19 "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Faith and Believing are different. I know people who believe in God or a higher being, but have not put there faith in Christ.

I agree with 5 of the above
1 Grace
2 Faith
3 Confession
4 Repentance
6 Holy Ghost

I think we must realize we are sinners, believe that Christ is the son of the One True God and came to this earth to die for our sins. We must ask for forgiveness and turn from our sins. Being born of water (birth) then of the Spirit (salvation).

These I don't agree with, mainly because these seem like "works" to me.
5 Baptisim
7 Endurance

I don't think that I am responsible for my salvation. I did nothing to deserve it. I was a gift offered to me that I accepted that I cannot give back.

Main reason I don't belive that the two above are mentioned are simply because of one example. If a man accepts God's grace through Faith, confesses his sins, repents and is filled with the Holy Spirit while on his death bed he cannot fulfill 5-Baptisim or 7-Endurance

Also, if we must fulfill 7-Endurance, does this mean that we have the possibilty of losing our Salvation?
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Postby pl_walker on Tue Nov 28, 2006 11:41 am

I really don't have time to reply to all of this, and I think, to a large degree my point has been made about the site's Plan of Salvation page. However, there are a few things that I feel need to be addressed.

hardroc wrote:The means of Grace
Suppose a man who cannot swim falls overboard. Suppose someone in the boat throws him a lifeline and pulls him to safety.

Who or what saved the drowning man? His friend? The lifeline? The life preserver? The boat? Or did the man save himself? The answer, of course, is that his friend saved him, the lifeline, and the life preserver, and the boat saved him. And he also saved himself.

This simple parable helps us understand that it is foolish to say that are saved by grace alone, as it would be for the drowning man to claim that any one of the above means saved him without other intervention.


Unfortunately, this is not a Biblical analogy. The Bible really only gives us two analogies for Salvation: Birth and Marriage. The concept of "saved" is more of a legal sense than a physical sense. That's why the analogy doesn't work.

When my kids were born, I didn't birth them, the Hospital didn't birth them, they didn't birth themselves, and the doctor didn't birth them. My wife did all the work to birth them. (Although in modern days we have doctor's doing forcep and c-section births, that's not the analogy being drawn by scriptures.)

The point is that the Birth is done by a single person, although lots of people have an influence. Could it happen without the baby, without a father, without a doctor (or someone performing the delivery), without a facility (whether hospital, home, or whatever)? No, it couldn't happen without all of these things, that doesn't mean that any of these are what performed the actual birth.

As to the marriage, I don't really have time to draw the analogies between the traditional Jewish marriage ceremony and salvation.

hardroc wrote:Saved by Baptism

Definition of Baptism: 1. To dip, plunge, or submerge. 2. A religious ceremony signifying spiritual purification by immersion in water.

I Peter 3:21 - "Whereunto even baptism doth also now save us."

Mark 16:16 - He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved.


RRRRIIIIIIPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!! That tearing sound you hear is the sound of verses being ripped out of their context. Sure, if you want to be simple and read just the few words written, you can prove this point. If you genuinely search the scriptures and examine these verses in context, you can't use them as a proof here (I commented on I Peter 3:21 above).

Paul
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