Working on the site's Plan of Salvation

We are working on both a Statement of Faith for the site and a Plan of Salvation. Come on in and gives us your input.

Postby chad_ghost on Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:29 pm

the problem with Baptism, in my opinion, is that it is an action, in mere words, work.

man is not worth saving, so there is nothing man can do to save himself.
it was through Christ that we have salvation available.

so what of those who accept Christ near death, or those who hear the word and choose salvation, but are not part of a church or have a place for baptism?

the only baptism we need is from the spirit, from which we are born again. water baptism is a display of faith, symbolic of our rebirth.
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Postby the pyromaniac on Tue Nov 28, 2006 9:10 pm

chad_ghost wrote:so what of those who accept Christ near death, or those who hear the word and choose salvation, but are not part of a church or have a place for baptism?


This is the question I've always brought up about the subject... I don't see it as necessary for salvation, only for a deeper relationship with God.
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Postby hardroc on Wed Nov 29, 2006 12:37 am

pl_walker wrote:
RRRRIIIIIIPPPPPP!!!!!!!!!!! That tearing sound you hear is the sound of verses being ripped out of their context. Sure, if you want to be simple and read just the few words written, you can prove this point. If you genuinely search the scriptures and examine these verses in context, you can't use them as a proof here (I commented on I Peter 3:21 above).

Paul


My friend, I have no problem putting 1 Peter 3:21 in to context for you. Please bear in mind, I have no malice towards you as I write this.


1 Peter 3:20,21 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

As when Noah set off his historic cruise, it was the water that destroyed the sin in the world, and the same water that saved Noah. In the "context" that is given, water baptism equates in the same sense in our soul and cleanses us.

Romans 6:1-11 "God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we [i]believe that we shall also live with him[/i]: Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord"

The newness of life, the old man crucified, the likeness of His resurrection, no more death, and being told to reckon yourselves to the be dead in deed, sounds like a new birth experience to me.


Colossians 2:12-14 "[b]Buried with him in baptism[/b], wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;


Oh yeah, and being dead and BELIVING we shall also live with him.

Remember, Jesus and Nicoddemus conversation late in to the night?

John 3:3-8 "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old(The old man being crucified)? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

Jesus said "Spirit and Water."

Peter given the keys to Heaven by Jesus earlier stated in Acts 2:38 “….and be baptized for the remission of sins and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.â€
Acts 2:38 "Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. "
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Postby camper on Wed Nov 29, 2006 10:00 am

1 Peter 3:20,21 "Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:"

As when Noah set off his historic cruise, it was the water that destroyed the sin in the world, and the same water that saved Noah. In the "context" that is given, water baptism equates in the same sense in our soul and cleanses us.


Was it the water, the ark, or God's grace? First, you have to read and look closely at what it says in brackets "not putting away the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God". If anything, this verse is showing that baptism does NOT save you. First, Noah and the others were not in the water...they were in the ark. The water didn't touch them. They were not brought under the water, but over it. The ark was not a submarine, they were not submerged for even a second. You were right in saying the water destroyed sin, but it was the Ark that saved, and even before that it was God's grace that allowed them to be saved. How the water saved them, was they had faith that God was going to do what He said, and because they believed Him and put thier trust in Him they survived.

Go back to Hebrews 11:7, and read "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness []u]which is by faith][/u].

Then go back to the old testament (Genesis 6:14-22) to read what it says there about God commanding Noah and Noah following God's commandement as shown in Hebrews 11:7 and you will see that it was NOT the water that saved, so the link stating that Noah and the Ark are a metaphor for baptism doesn't (pardon the pun) hold water.

Romans 6:1-11...... Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12-14 "Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.


These passages do MORE to suggest that baptism is a symbolic act and less to support the statement that it's a requirment for salvation. It is meant to illustrate how we are born again in Christ. The key word is like. Think about this quote from a popular TV show...."Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives." Are our days really like sand, as in equal to sand? Or, is that a symbolic representation?

John 3:3-8 "....Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again."


Like has been pointed out previously, you have to look at the context in which this was written as well. "Born of water" means the physchal birth, and would have been clearly understood as such by those living during that time. Just like when asked by the Pharasees, Jesus never directly says the words "I am God in flesh" it is clearly understood by them how He answers questions, that that is exactly what He was saying.

But for the born of water = born of flesh, re-read the verse and you can clearly see that born of water is being compared to born of flesh interchangeably. Born of spirit, is being reborn into Christ.


Peter given the keys to Heaven by Jesus earlier stated in Acts 2:38 “….and be baptized for the remission of sins and ye SHALL receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.â€
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Postby chad_ghost on Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:05 am

camper wrote:These passages do MORE to suggest that baptism is a symbolic act and less to support the statement that it's a requirment for salvation. It is meant to illustrate how we are born again in Christ. The key word is like. Think about this quote from a popular TV show...."Like sands through the hourglass, so are the days of our lives." Are our days really like sand, as in equal to sand? Or, is that a symbolic representation?

using like or as for comparison is a simile (just discussed that on monday with my 5th graders).

ive heard it before that baptist is an outward expression of an internal confession. its not the act that saves, but the decision to confess and accept the Holy Spirit.
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Postby pl_walker on Wed Nov 29, 2006 11:36 am

hardroc wrote:My friend, I have no problem putting 1 Peter 3:21 in to context for you. Please bear in mind, I have no malice towards you as I write this.


Hey Rocky,

I didn't and don't take any offense at your post. And I hope you don't take any at mine.

I posted replies to some of your points above in a previous post. The only one I will reiterate here. Given the context of John chapter 3, it is not good exegesis to read into "born of water" a meaning of Baptism. Given the context and history of the people involved, it is not possible that Christ was talking about Baptism.

I will also add, that I agree with the statement I quoted above:

www.tektonics.org/af/baptismneed.html wrote:...the answer to the question, "Is baptism necessary for salvation?", is that the question is out of order. If there is any question that needs to be asked, it is this: "If you are saved, and you know what baptism means and that it was commanded by Christ, why would you not be baptized?" One does not become baptized to be saved; one is saved and is therefore baptized. Faith that is true inevitably manifests itself in obedience...


I hope that regardless of what the decision is for the site's Plan of Salvation that you will still stick around. As I mention above, one of my best friends believes in Baptismal Regeneration. He and I agree to disagree on the matter, and while it comes up on occasion, we generally don't talk about it.

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Postby andrwfields on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:24 pm

*BUMP*

I know I've been doing this alot lately, but this is important as well. Would anybody be opposed to just putting up a simple guide like ACTS or FAITH? In terms of being saved (actually accepting God in your heart), baptism plays a very small part and should be left up to the individual to decide on it's importance. This is part of not belonging to any one denomination.
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Postby camper on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:37 pm

andrwfields wrote:*BUMP*

I know I've been doing this alot lately, but this is important as well.


You know Andrew....every time you pull one of these up, I realise that I really REALLY like to type.

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Postby andrwfields on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:43 pm

Haha, yeah me too! I've been trying to think of what it would be called though. If you talk too much, it's called long-winded?

Long-Fingers?
Fast-Fingers?
Endless-Typer?
... :lol:
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Postby camper on Thu Nov 08, 2007 3:59 pm

andrwfields wrote:Haha, yeah me too! I've been trying to think of what it would be called though. If you talk too much, it's called long-winded?

Long-Fingers?
Fast-Fingers?
Endless-Typer?
... :lol:


My mom always called it "Diarrhea of the mouth".

Perhaps diarrhea of the fingers? Of the keyboard?

Not sure....

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Postby chad_ghost on Fri Nov 09, 2007 8:50 pm

You know, with both of these, I'd like to have an actual website that linked to the forums. I've been toying with moving servers, so when that happens, I'm going to try to throw a main page together for the site.
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Postby Raider on Fri Nov 09, 2007 9:25 pm

You guys talking about saving people online would that not be a "virtual salvation" unless it had something to ground it in the real world? Is that not the purpose of baptism, to bring a metaphor of immersion and having the rest of the congregation ready to help out with the rest of the journey?

Not the best words to use but I think I read my point.
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Postby MacGyver on Sat Nov 10, 2007 9:22 am

camper wrote:
andrwfields wrote:Haha, yeah me too! I've been trying to think of what it would be called though. If you talk too much, it's called long-winded?

Long-Fingers?
Fast-Fingers?
Endless-Typer?
... :lol:


My mom always called it "Diarrhea of the mouth".

Perhaps diarrhea of the fingers? Of the keyboard?

Not sure....

dan


LOL...I run at the keyboard. :shifty



Raider
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:25 am Post subject:
You guys talking about saving people online would that not be a "virtual salvation" unless it had something to ground it in the real world? Is that not the purpose of baptism, to bring a metaphor of immersion and having the rest of the congregation ready to help out with the rest of the journey?

Not the best words to use but I think I read my point.


I think I understand what you're trying to say. I'd forgotten all that was said about baptism here and just skimmed through some of it. Baptism, I believe is to symbolize an inward profession of faith in Christ and Jesus's death and resurrection active in our life (which is why our son was not baptized as a baby...he couldn't have made the profession of faith at that time). I thought maybe it was something Jesus commanded, but if, so I can't find it. When you take references to baptism in context, yes, it's commanded in conjunction with believing, but salvation does not depend on it. Baptism is more of an expected outflow of professed belief in Jesus Christ. Maybe after giving a basic plan of salvation (I use the Romans Road often) there can be a brief list of suggested "next steps" such as:

-finding a Bible believing, salvation preaching church or group of believers for support

-tell somebody you can trust

-follow Jesus in baptism (maybe include a scripture on the baptism of Jesus) To me, that seems a doctrine-neutral way of presenting it...if Jesus did it, then it follows that I should...)

-find a Bible that's easy for you to understand or use biblegateway.com until you find a version you're comfortable with

There are probably other suggestions to add, but that's what I can think of at the moment.
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Postby RevSears on Sat Nov 10, 2007 1:27 pm

WOW! i miss not having the net at home, i really should have been posting on this.

Don't have a lot of time, but Baptism is the first act after salvation. To me that's pretty simple. If it was water that saved us then we could just dunk anyone and the water or the act of Baptism would be glorified not God for his grace.
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Re: Working on the site's Plan of Salvation

Postby RevSears on Wed Mar 11, 2009 2:53 pm

Its said we kinda dropped this! Andy might be going in the right direction.

a simple abc (Admit believe confess) and then a note. The veiws on Baptism range from Neccessary to salvation to the first action of a believer either way we strongly urge you to arrange it quickly after salvation and to find a church home to worship and grow in.

that way we kinda get to have it both ways.
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