Eternal Security. Do we have it, or not?

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Eternal Security. Do we have it, or not?

Postby camper on Thu Aug 17, 2006 11:52 am

In the interest of starting a topic, I figured this is a good one. We've kind of discussed it before, but lets really dig into it.

I think this is an important topic. The truth or falsehood of Eternal Security (once saved, always saved) can have serious ramifications, and if it is false it can directly affect our salvation.

Personally I believe it to be true, because if it isn't then there is no hope for us. None. At all. We're all doomed, and we're all condemned to hell.

Why?

Who can keep the commandments?

All of them? Can you? I know I can't.

So then the question is raised, that if it's only certain sin that separates us from God, which sin is it? Any sin a person can possibly ever do is listed throughout the Bible and considerd to be equal.

Sure, you might not commit murder but Christ said that anger/hatred is murder in your heart. We're told not to commimt adultery, but if you look at a woman with lust you've done it. We're told not take the Lord's name in vain, but Christ went further to say let your yes be yes, and no be no and swear on nothing. I could go on, but you can read Matthew 5 yourself ;)


In fact let me pull up a versethat I've seen used to refute Eternal Security, and I'll make some added comments:

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.


We're all out, by this verse alone. Didn't Christ say that if you look at a woman with lust in you're heart you've committed adultery? How often do you do that in a day? I can't tell you, because I can't count that high. I see a pretty girl, and boom. I'm done in. Covetous? Have you ever said or thought "That's a nice car, I would like one like that some day."? If you have, you've coveted. There's an example for every single one of those things, listed and we may never realize we're doing it.

But even though those verses are used to prove that there is no eternal security, verse 11 immediately following offers hope and some clarification:

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.


Read and follow it through all the way to vs 20...

20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.


Of course we should strive not to sin. Eternal Security is not a license to sin and if your motivation for becoming a Christian is solely for the reason to get that 'fire insurance' so you can go on doing what you want to do, then you're truly not regretting nor repenting of your sins. But we will still fall, we will still sin, and we will always come up short.

I really believe that Christ's sacrifice was able to cover all past, present and future sins.

I don't believe we can lose our salvation, and I think worrying about it takes away from the joy that we should have as Christians. But I also believe that when given the opportunity to sin, our actions should refelct a fear of losing it. ;)

Anyway, your thoughts/opinions? Let's open up the can of worms and sort them out by color, size, breed, and girth :P

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Postby andrwfields on Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:02 pm

Dan, it's really going to tip your noodle. But I agree with everything you said. I got nothing on this one. I await the controversy so that I may jump in. :lol:
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Postby camper on Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:40 pm

andrwfields wrote:Dan, it's really going to tip your noodle. But I agree with everything you said. I got nothing on this one. I await the controversy so that I may jump in. :lol:


:verymad:

Well, you could at least insult me or something...sheesh! :roll:

dan

:P
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Postby andrwfields on Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:45 pm

I mean grumble grumble grumble! Here in the Methodist Church we don't think anybody is saved! Or ever will be! Useless cause!

Or something like that... 8)
"...An Apology. If you met me between 1987 and 2005 and I told you, "I'll pray for you," that was a lie. Never happened. I probably didn't pray for you. And that's not cool." - Prodigal Jon from StuffChristiansLike.blogspot.com
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Postby Chaplain on Thu Aug 17, 2006 1:48 pm

My brain sighs in relief that I won't have to link to a website or read an entire volume of some other doctrine for this issue.

Perhaps I only need.....the Bible?

Ahh, that's better. :)
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Postby andrwfields on Thu Aug 17, 2006 2:01 pm

Hey Chaplain, what translation do you use? Lol.
"...An Apology. If you met me between 1987 and 2005 and I told you, "I'll pray for you," that was a lie. Never happened. I probably didn't pray for you. And that's not cool." - Prodigal Jon from StuffChristiansLike.blogspot.com
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Postby ColtsFan76 on Thu Aug 17, 2006 3:52 pm

I really want to start a good discussion but there is nothign for me to refute in your statements. I can't even find anything to say "yeah, but" to.

But like Andrew said, maybe some one will disagree and we can discuss in earnest.
James 1:19-20 (NIV)
My dear brothers, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, for man's anger does not bring about the righteous life that God desires.

<><
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Postby PoetFlint on Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:10 pm

Maybe next week I will have time to discuss this, and though i may have the time now, I'm a little scatterbrained right now to do the research. I used up all my energies in my Support of the President on JoeBattlelines...
sigh...
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Postby Matthew on Thu Aug 17, 2006 4:11 pm

i know there are some on here that believe this in some form or fashion, but like those who have posted, i too agree that salvation cannot be lost.
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Postby RevSears on Sun Aug 20, 2006 3:48 pm

I have encounted this argument a lot in my life.

No man can take you out of God's hands (can someone help me with where that verse is? at the in-laws and my bible isn't in front of me)

some of tried to refute that by saying you can jump out. Of course i beleive your a man and your discluded too.

With a focus on trying to maintain salvation it locks a beleiver in an emotional roller coaster rather than help them begin a journey of growth in Christ.

yeah muders etc. don't go to heaven, but if your covered in his blood, your a NEW CREATURE.
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Postby camper on Mon Aug 21, 2006 1:46 pm

RevSears wrote:No man can take you out of God's hands (can someone help me with where that verse is? at the in-laws and my bible isn't in front of me). some of tried to refute that by saying you can jump out. Of course i beleive your a man and your discluded too.


Here's the verse:

John 10:28-29 "And I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand."

I've heard the 'jump out' comment too, but the verse says that God is holding the person, and not the person is holding on to God.

But also look at 1 John 2:19:

"They went out from us, but they were not really of us; for if they had been of us, they would have remained with us; but they went out, so that it would be shown that they all are not of us."


I think there's 2 separate issues that many people try to merge into one (not here on this site, just in general):

1 - People who claim to be saved, but really are not,
and
2 - People who *are* saved, but fall away from the faith.

Only God can really know if a person is saved, but He's given us clues on what to look for. Why? Because if I claim to be a Christian, and am doing something UN-Christian, it is the responsibility of the fellow Christian to step up and say "Hey, what are you doing?" to keep me walking the right path. We need to encourage one another, and sometimes people need to be encouraged and falling away from the faith could be a massive symptom of that.

If I reject what you say (continually, and without remorse), then I've either never had the faith or am fallen away. You can't know which, so what do you do? You approach me as someone who's never had it because that's the worst of the two scenarios.

I'm of the opinion the same as Rev, that trying to maintain salvation puts a beleiver in an emotional roller coaster that will hinder their growth in Christ. And that's why I think this is such an important issue, because I think being in constant fear or insecurity of one's salvation will cause you to eventually fall away, and possibly latch onto false doctrine that may severely damage your relationship with Christ.

You can't make it on your own, and if you're basing your salvation on how good you are and how well you follow the 'rules' you will soon come to terms that you're utterly doomed, and that there is no hope for you. If you're constantly feeling like you're failing, then how will you live your best for Christ, when every time you do you realize you can't be good enough?

Eventually, most people (I'm hesitant to say all even though I believe it to be all) will give up out of frustration, or depression. "Why not do what I want now, if I'm doomed for eternity anyway?" becomes the lie we believe, and rather than be an example for Christian living we're the poster boy for 'those religious hypocrites'. Your unsaved friends and family remember that you're a Christian, every time they see you do something wrong it's one of those thoughts running through their mind.

Either way, satan wins. You're a bad witness who might keep others away, AND you're not living up to your potential and earning the rewards. He can't have you, but he can make sure that you don't get everything you could. And if you're inadvertantly preventing others from getting saved, all the better.

When you're truly grateful for something you don't deserve, you end up repaying back the kindness more than you ever would if you actually *did* have to buy it. Being truly thankful for something given solely out of love generates far more of kindness and gratitude than if you feeling like you have to repay it back.

Working to maintain something that you couldn't possibly do enough work to even earn in the first place, will burn anyone out. That's not accepting a gift, it's trying to earn it.

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Re: Eternal Security. Do we have it, or not?

Postby RevSears on Thu Sep 20, 2012 12:29 pm

I have been recently struggling with this. It's very strange, I've always been trained and taught eternal security but I had a discussion the other night with a the most knowledgeable person I've met with the opposing position, and i literally got a headache as I tried to make sense of seemingly conflicting scriptures. He brought 2Peter, several warnings, the parable of the vines, and I went back with Hebrews 6, sealed unto the day of redemption, "I never knew you" as opposed to I knew once but o longer etc. But he rattled me by really properly explaining a more logical stance. It's not sin that would cause you to loose your salvation, but a firm consistent loss of belief and a constant resistance of the Holy spirit. He argued that if God is a gentleman and would not force you to get saved, why would you force you to stay saved? Does that change argument in your minds?
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Re: Eternal Security. Do we have it, or not?

Postby Matthew on Thu Sep 20, 2012 2:20 pm

The last part is interesting, not forcing to stay saved. But, without re-reading this thread (and I may have said it before), but if I could do something, ie sin or choose to not be saved, then that would mean that I something to do with my own salvation. I didn't choose salvation, it, nay, He chose me.

I think if someone decided to not be saved anymore, they never had a true relationship with Jesus to begin with.
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Re: Eternal Security. Do we have it, or not?

Postby Wowboy on Thu Sep 20, 2012 3:32 pm

RevSears wrote:But he rattled me by really properly explaining a more logical stance. It's not sin that would cause you to loose your salvation, but a firm consistent loss of belief and a constant resistance of the Holy spirit.


Personally, I think that this is impossible.

When someone is moved by the spirit and receives salvation, it is such a jarring, eye-opening experience that it would be impossible to ever truly deny.

We've all heard that being lost is like being blind (most notably from the hymn of all hymns, Amazing Grace.) It is the holy spirit that opens our spiritual "eyes" and allows us to "see" the grace of God. Once you see and experience this and receive the gift of salvation, there is nothing you or anyone else can do to get it out of there.

A couple of examples I've heard used... going with the sight analogy... Could someone who was blind, but then gains sight for the first time and experiences things previously unimaginable like color, simply close their eyes, refuse to see, and truly, in their heart of hearts, believe that there is no such thing as color?

Another one, which is kinda funny... when you're a kid and you fall on the concrete and smash yourself up, you gain a very deep belief that concrete is HARD and it HURTS. Once you've experienced this, is there any way to truly convince yourself that concrete feels like nerf and could never hurt you?

The answer to both is of course NO. This is why I believe that it is impossible to disbelieve once you have believed.
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Re: Eternal Security. Do we have it, or not?

Postby RevSears on Thu Sep 20, 2012 11:25 pm

Matthew wrote:The last part is interesting, not forcing to stay saved. But, without re-reading this thread (and I may have said it before), but if I could do something, ie sin or choose to not be saved, then that would mean that I something to do with my own salvation. I didn't choose salvation, it, nay, He chose me.

I think if someone decided to not be saved anymore, they never had a true relationship with Jesus to begin with.

this has been my typical train of thought, but when God chose us for Salvation, we did still have free will right? We had to accept that gift and could deny it, why only one chance of free will? Granted that maybe un fair as we can deny the spirit several times.

I think one of the keys to the debate is how we view time and eternity. Is eternity a special time of linear time, or is it beyond time? If it is beyond time and God is looking at the whole of lives, he always sees the final outcome, why inject us with the Holy spirit if he knows we will reject it later?
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