Eternal Security. Do we have it, or not?

[RevSears]

But he rattled me by really properly explaining a more logical stance. It's not sin that would cause you to loose your salvation, but a firm consistent loss of belief and a constant resistance of the Holy spirit.

Personally, I think that this is impossible.

When someone is moved by the spirit and receives salvation, it is such a jarring, eye-opening experience that it would be impossible to ever truly deny.

We've all heard that being lost is like being blind (most notably from the hymn of all hymns, Amazing Grace.) It is the holy spirit that opens our spiritual "eyes" and allows us to "see" the grace of God. Once you see and experience this and receive the gift of salvation, there is nothing you or anyone else can do to get it out of there.

A couple of examples I've heard used... going with the sight analogy... Could someone who was blind, but then gains sight for the first time and experiences things previously unimaginable like color, simply close their eyes, refuse to see, and truly, in their heart of hearts, believe that there is no such thing as color?

Another one, which is kinda funny... when you're a kid and you fall on the concrete and smash yourself up, you gain a very deep belief that concrete is HARD and it HURTS. Once you've experienced this, is there any way to truly convince yourself that concrete feels like nerf and could never hurt you?

The answer to both is of course NO. This is why I believe that it is impossible to disbelieve once you have believed.

I have to confess, I have seen people do crazy things over and over again expecting different results. Many would arguing we are knowingly headed down the path of Greece politically.

[Wowboy]

[quote="RevSears]I have to confess, I have seen people do crazy things over and over again expecting different results. Many would arguing we are knowingly headed down the path of Greece politically.[/quote]

When people do the same thing over and over expecting different results, there is usually an abstract element that is out of their control.

The example of Greece is very abstract... Greece shifted it's economy from a free-market capitalistic society to a socialistic one with too many people dependent upon the government for sustenance. Economics by nature is abstract, and I would say that most people don't understand it. For example, just the other day I overheard a co-worker describing what doesn't work about capitalism. The problem with their description is that they were actually describing some bizarre hybrid of mercantilism and socialism. Keep in mind that this person has a MASTER's DEGREE.

The Holy Spirit may seem abstract because we cannot visualize it, but having the spirit wash over you is anything but abstract.

It's worth pointing out that in your argument with this guy, you used scripture, aka God's logic, and he used man's logic against you.

Also, there are a lot of churches who believe exactly what your friend believes -- that if a person loses faith, they forfeit their salvation. In every church I've ever been in that believes in the doctrine of eternal security, they would say that if a person loses faith, they never had it to begin with. The end result is the same.

So, all in all, it's a point of contention which we should joyfully debate with our brothers and sisters, but never let it divide us.

[RevSears]

Wow Boy I agree with a lot of what you are saying.

I often her captialism attacked for things that aren't very captialism like in our own society. People are confused, and politics , spin, buzz words etc. all help to make that happen.

As for the topic at hand, I agree the end result is the same and there are legitmate fears on both sides, I don't think anyone wants someone to go around sinning while claiming salvation for a simple set of words that weren't heart felt. It's not a magic incantation. Rational people on the other side will agree you can't loose your salvation every time you sneeze or sin either , and i fear that the stance that you can loose your salvation almost always leads to that attitude among the congregation and leads to people